4K Films ?

[Ian Oliver]

So I was thinking that once I had my 4K display connected to my 4K Apple TV that I could do some 4K TACX films. Was I imagining that such films exist? Mac TDA gives me search options for only 720P & 1080P, no 4K. On films I see HD720 and HD but no 4K.

??

Thanks,

[mcorn]

So I was thinking that once I had my 4K display connected to my 4K Apple TV that I could do some 4K TACX films. Was I imagining that such films exist? Mac TDA gives me search options for only 720P & 1080P, no 4K. On films I see HD720 and HD but no 4K.

??

Thanks,

Even though Phil has created some 4K test videos for TDA, they are not part of the public library of TDA films. I have compared 4K and 1080P videos for the same rides with a number of different bike software applications on my 50" 4K monitor. While there is usually some improvement in sharpness and clarity, in my opinion it is generally relatively minor. Keep in mind that a high quality 4K file can easily be 30GB in size while the comparable 1080P is between 5GB and 10GB. So, you can see that making 4K available would result in major network data costs. And some of the 4K videos might not stream for many users due to high bandwidth requirements. One other thing to keep in mind is that video resolution is only only of a number of factors that determine overall video quality. It is possible to make 4K videos that have so much compression, their quality is not as good as a 1080P or are captured with a camera that does not have a high enough quality image sensor or camera lens to make a good 4K image.

[BerthaVision]

well over 100 of the rides are available in 4K but only in Beta or at least they were until recently when they switched to the streaming server. All the redacted new content is now uploaded in 4K. As Mike said its the bitrate that really matters or you just have sharp looking compression artifacts. I would expect Tacx to make 4K UHD available at some point. We are now filming the raw content in way over 4K

[Ian Oliver]

Thanks. Agree on the quality diffs vs file size for 4k vs 1080P. I think it might be worth it though... For some of us anyway. Similar to you I've a 52" 4K HDR so it is somewhat noticeable/appreciated. I'd downloaded a couple of 4K films prior and enjoyed them. I think perhaps they'd need to be download only, no streaming, especially w/ HDR10+/WCG/120.

ImaxShift anyone?

Yeah, I know for drone footage they always shoot higher than 4k. Even the best of drone stuff needs some bit of post image stablization and very often they do a bit of post PTZ as well. A Red Helium shooting 5k seems quite popular if no extra PTZ is needed.

[BerthaVision]

Thanks. Agree on the quality diffs vs file size for 4k vs 1080P. I think it might be worth it though... For some of us anyway. Similar to you I've a 52" 4K HDR so it is somewhat noticeable/appreciated. I'd downloaded a couple of 4K films prior and enjoyed them. I think perhaps they'd need to be download only, no streaming, especially w/ HDR10+/WCG/120.

ImaxShift anyone?

Yeah, I know for drone footage they always shoot higher than 4k. Even the best of drone stuff needs some bit of post image stablization and very often they do a bit of post PTZ as well. A Red Helium shooting 5k seems quite popular if no extra PTZ is needed.

After a bit of a gear update we are now actually recording in 6K, the result is a slightly sharper 4K but really by the time its all compressed down to HD there is no visible difference. Its been a rather dreadful year so far from software dev to filming, but I hope things start rolling again.

[mcorn]

About the only time I notice differences in 4K and HD is when I go into a Costco or other electronics store and look at 80" monitors on the wall that are being fed by special high-bit rate video sources. As soon as I compare more ordinary video sources, the differences get way less. And when the monitor size gets down to 65" or less and I am standing 10 feet from the picture, the differences get very smaller.

[BerthaVision]

About the only time I notice differences in 4K and HD is when I go into a Costco or other electronics store and look at 80" monitors on the wall that are being fed by special high-bit rate video sources. As soon as I compare more ordinary video sources, the differences get way less. And when the monitor size gets down to 65" or less and I am standing 10 feet from the picture, the differences get very smaller.

I can see the difference here on my monitor, but its 5K & Im looking at the original footage, we have a little more latitude now then the older camera, not a lot to be that noticable but you should notice maybe some better skys & even less over exposed. Just back from a 4 day trip to the Blackforest to test it all out under typical conditions..typical being the weather was dreadfull haha. I have atleast 1 really nice ride in the sun & 3 other more sketchy ones with a possible very short one from the German Palatine vineyards yesterday (until a broken chain & then the clouds rolled in again).

[BerthaVision]

1st images from the new camera gear test in the Black Forest this week

[Martin]

Seems ok to me

[nzuraw]

Love some of the shots from the films, sometimes I forget what some look like. So seeing some shots makes me want to re-ride them. (pre-coffee ramble...)

[BerthaVision]

Here is a image from some log footage that Ive just this second looked at for the 1st time (taken last week in the northen Blackforest really close to where the old original 2008 version ended). No idea if these will end up being produced but I think it will make an interesting ride with some gravel road feeling haha

[nzuraw]

Nice windy gravel roads, love it. Or probably not on the Neo with road feel

I assume these images are pre-production - would be great to see a photo where one side is pre-prod, the other post-prod.

[BerthaVision]

Nice windy gravel roads, love it. Or probably not on the Neo with road feel

I assume these images are pre-production - would be great to see a photo where one side is pre-prod, the other post-prod.

yes pre-production, its log & has no real colour or contrast yet. Im making this ride today (if the sun remains hidden) it will be in Stage 2 of whats now a 3 stage tour of the northen BlackForest. Stage 1 will be a short very easy valley based cycling path ride.

[BerthaVision]

I wish you could see it moving in 6k like I can, they will be compressed to hell back after we run them through Garmins censorship software, looking into the hardware needed to bring that compressed stuff back to the original raw & then mix that back in to bag us at least the quality we used to have with TTS4. Its going to be a lot of extra work but it would be more rewarding visually.

[nzuraw]

Nice - Without giving too much away, I take it Garmin has additional requirements on film production that Tacx had?

[BerthaVision]

Nice - Without giving too much away, I take it Garmin has additional requirements on film production that Tacx had?

Yes a lot more & as I always said with the subscriptions the temptation will always be to deliver a quality they can get away with. Its a bit of a double whammy on this product. But pushing the original image quality up a bit as the tech improves will hopefully counter it. They could offer an experience that would put your jaw on the floor if you have a big high quality UHD display. My hope is one day they would at least offer it as a option, even if it was priced to guarantee a healthy profit margine those with the gear & money would love it.

[mcorn]

Nice - Without giving too much away, I take it Garmin has additional requirements on film production that Tacx had?

Yes a lot more & as I always said with the subscriptions the temptation will always be to deliver a quality they can get away with. Its a bit of a double whammy on this product. But pushing the original image quality up a bit as the tech improves will hopefully counter it. They could offer an experience that would put your jaw on the floor if you have a big high quality UHD display. My hope is one day they would at least offer it as a option, even if it was priced to guarantee a healthy profit margine those with the gear & money would love it.

I think it comes down to what customers would be willing to pay. Most of this very high quality probably would not stream, so it would be download costs which are a function of file size. If you quadruple the file size, costs will go up a lot. I doubt many customers are willing to double their subscription fee, but I guess you could give them the option and let them vote with their checkbook.

[BerthaVision]

Nice - Without giving too much away, I take it Garmin has additional requirements on film production that Tacx had?

Yes a lot more & as I always said with the subscriptions the temptation will always be to deliver a quality they can get away with. Its a bit of a double whammy on this product. But pushing the original image quality up a bit as the tech improves will hopefully counter it. They could offer an experience that would put your jaw on the floor if you have a big high quality UHD display. My hope is one day they would at least offer it as a option, even if it was priced to guarantee a healthy profit margine those with the gear & money would love it.

I think it comes down to what customers would be willing to pay. Most of this very high quality probably would not stream, so it would be download costs which are a function of file size. If you quadruple the file size, costs will go up a lot. I doubt many customers are willing to double their subscription fee, but I guess you could give them the option and let them vote with their checkbook.

Mike that hits the nail on the head! The quality is there, we upload to the server files in 4K that many of the RLV Beta team were completely hooked on, really there must be well over 150 rides in 4K on their server right now... Just charge what ever it takes to make delivering it profitable. It would cost nothing extra at all & the choice is there for anyone with the gear or funds...there are some out there that can afford to just want the best image they can get. If nothing else it would probably generate a few 2nd glances at the Tacx stand during the expos. Tacx was slated by Ray Maker recently for delivering high quality content (his words) with such terrible low bitrate.

[mcorn]

Mike that hits the nail on the head! The quality is there, we upload to the server files in 4K that many of the RLV Beta team were completely hooked on, really there must be well over 150 rides in 4K on their server right now... Just charge what ever it takes to make delivering it profitable. It would cost nothing extra at all & the choice is there for anyone with the gear or funds...there are some out there that can afford to just want the best image they can get. If nothing else it would probably generate a few 2nd glances at the Tacx stand during the expos. Tacx was slated by Ray Maker recently for delivering high quality content (his words) with such terrible low bitrate.

Yes, you know if it would be possible to have a flexible billing system, you could simply add a surcharge for each ultra video the user downloaded. That way, users could pick which ones they wanted without having to commit to a big increase in the recurring monthly fee.

[BerthaVision]

Mike that hits the nail on the head! The quality is there, we upload to the server files in 4K that many of the RLV Beta team were completely hooked on, really there must be well over 150 rides in 4K on their server right now... Just charge what ever it takes to make delivering it profitable. It would cost nothing extra at all & the choice is there for anyone with the gear or funds...there are some out there that can afford to just want the best image they can get. If nothing else it would probably generate a few 2nd glances at the Tacx stand during the expos. Tacx was slated by Ray Maker recently for delivering high quality content (his words) with such terrible low bitrate.

Yes, you know if it would be possible to have a flexible billing system, you could simply add a surcharge for each ultra video the user downloaded. That way, users could pick which ones they wanted without having to commit to a big increase in the recurring monthly fee.

They could make 4K download only, it would probably be a fair bit cheaper then streaming HD as these servers are very expensive



just testing out some screen grabs while I very slowly work my way through this ride from the new camera, its a different format & will probably end up with a slightly different look & feel.

[mcorn]

Mike that hits the nail on the head! The quality is there, we upload to the server files in 4K that many of the RLV Beta team were completely hooked on, really there must be well over 150 rides in 4K on their server right now... Just charge what ever it takes to make delivering it profitable. It would cost nothing extra at all & the choice is there for anyone with the gear or funds...there are some out there that can afford to just want the best image they can get. If nothing else it would probably generate a few 2nd glances at the Tacx stand during the expos. Tacx was slated by Ray Maker recently for delivering high quality content (his words) with such terrible low bitrate.

Yes, you know if it would be possible to have a flexible billing system, you could simply add a surcharge for each ultra video the user downloaded. That way, users could pick which ones they wanted without having to commit to a big increase in the recurring monthly fee.

They could make 4K download only, it would probably be a fair bit cheaper then streaming HD as these servers are very expensive

I think one problem with streaming this very high quality is some users do not have the bandwidth.

They could also take another approach to billing, which is to have a monthly gigabyte quota and let users decide how they want to spend it.

[nzuraw]

Another thing to consider is that a lot of the user-base will use tablets rather than a PC. Most people have one, where they don't necessarily have a PC. A couple friends of mine, ditched their PC in favour of their Ipads for Zwift and TrainerRoad recently.

[mcorn]

Another thing to consider is that a lot of the user-base will use tablets rather than a PC. Most people have one, where they don't necessarily have a PC. A couple friends of mine, ditched their PC in favour of their Ipads for Zwift and TrainerRoad recently.

I agree. For mobile and other small screen devices, it is a waste of time. I think you need at least a 42" 4K display to see any benefit. Which is why having some flexibility in the billing system would accommodate everyone.

[BerthaVision]

For me its like the quality is there & it could be available for those with the right hardware (modern gaming PC or recent imac) linked to a UHD TV. Its not a money making product for Garmin for sure but it would sure help neutralise those that say Tacx quality is poor.. Its just a shame really that what you see is probably 1/4 as sharp & clear as what I have here.

[mcorn]

For me its like the quality is there & it could be available for those with the right hardware (modern gaming PC or recent imac) linked to a UHD TV. Its not a money making product for Garmin for sure but it would sure help neutralise those that say Tacx quality is poor.. Its just a shame really that what you see is probably 1/4 as sharp & clear as what I have here.

I don't think Tacx quality is poor at all. I have been using Rouvy from time to time and the quality of many Rouvy videos is not very good at all. And by quality, I don't been just resolution. The editing, video setup, and post-production improvements of Rouvy videos is no where as good as Phil's work.

[Ian Oliver]

Agree about TACX quality. The shooting, editing and data/commentary are better than others I've seen. It's too bad it gets grunged in the last link. I'd definitely be willing to pay a bit extra per download to get a better file.

In our new living room we've a Sony 65A8G OLED. Great image and fast processing. Definitely destined for TACX hand-me-down when replacement time comes

[BerthaVision]

Agree about TACX quality. The shooting, editing and data/commentary are better than others I've seen. It's too bad it gets grunged in the last link. I'd definitely be willing to pay a bit extra per download to get a better file.

In our new living room we've a Sony 65A8G OLED. Great image and fast processing. Definitely destined for TACX hand-me-down when replacement time comes

Thats what I have in my head, a large % have UHD TVs that are due to be replaced that almost never actually got to display any actual UHD... Anyway we have the 'potential' to one day deliver a product for them

[Ian Oliver]

I wonder how many people (TACX users) don't realize that pretty much any TV on the market today (and likely most hand-me-downs in their own house) works as a display device? And how much difference a larger and better quality display makes? And how much prices have come down? And how easy it can be to connect one of these to whatever device is running TDA?

I was really surprised at the difference when I went from the 27" I had been using to the 52" (hand-me-down from our master bedroom). Workouts are much more enjoyable and many things (like reading info panels) much less irritating.

The single large screen image on the TACX site has a mediumish size display uncomfortably looking low to the ground. They should feature images of larger displays at a more reasonable height. And lots of them so that people who lack imagination (90% of the population?) can get ideas for how to setup their own TACX. They can also nudge people with how much better displays are now and how good it would be to upgrade their main TV and move the old one to their TACX.

Also, I'd love to see workouts overlayed on films. I much prefer riding to one of your films so will print out a workout and tape it to my display when I can. Some workouts need to be done as workouts though and for these I really miss the films.

[ms6073]

I agree. For mobile and other small screen devices, it is a waste of time. I think you need at least a 42" 4K display to see any benefit.

Yes, but both our now 2+ year old Samsung S9 Smartphones as well as our 3-4 year old Samsung tablet have the ability to 'cast' the view to our Smart TVs. I prefer using our PC's because we have a wired cat 6 ethernet outlet in the trainer room, where as the WiFi from our AT&T Uverse gateway can be spotty in that room.

[nzuraw]

I much prefer a larger screen too. Our 4 year old 65" tv is becoming a much wanted hand me down in the family. The kids want it, but then again it would be a great replacement for the 40" I used for TDA.

One thing I can't stop thinking about, is how can you immerse yourself using a tablet - maybe it's my poor eyesite :p